SUMMARY OF PROCEEDINGS

Joint Travel, Recreation, Wildlife & Cultural Resources Interim Committee

Big Horn Federal Bank                                                                                           June 11 and 12, 2001

Thermopolis, Wyoming

PRESENT:      Senator  Carroll Miller, Cochairman;

                        Representative Teense Willford, Cochairman

Senators Ken Decaria, Mike Massie, Delaine Roberts and Steve Youngbauer;

Representatives Gerald Gay, Jerry Iekel, Larry Meuli, Bud Nelson, Bill Thompson and Louie Tomassi;

Other Legislators in Attendance:  Representatives Mike Baker, Del McOmie and Frank Philp;

Legislative Service Office:  Dave Gruver, Travis Samulski.

Others Present:  See Appendices 1 and 2.

ABSENT:        Representatives Phil Nicholas and Bubba Shivler.

AGENDA:       See Appendix 3.

*  *  *  *  *

Cochairman Willford, called the Committee to order at 9:00 a.m.

Wyoming State Parks and Cultural Resources

John Keck, State Parks and Cultural Resources Department Director, and Bill Gentle, Deputy Director discussed the relatively high number of accidents at the state parks this year.  They summarized the training park staff has and issues surrounding additional training that might be provided.

Mr. Gentle then reviewed the current state parks and historical sites.  He noted the number of visitors at each site and revenues each generates and discussed staffing levels at some of the locations.  The strengths of the system were noted as well as what were termed "embarrassments" for the system, based upon the current conditions, level of development or lack of resources devoted to the location. 

The Committee discussed master planning for the system and prioritization of locations and dissemination of information to the public.  The Committee also discussed law enforcement questions relating to the parks.  Senator Miller moved that Senator Roberts' bill from last session, including state park rangers within the definition of peace officer for purposes of Title 6 of the statutes be drafted and presented to the Committee at its next meeting.  The motion was seconded and passed.  Mr. Gentle noted the Department had been advised that there was an issue as to whether the state park rangers could enforce controlled substance laws on state park grounds.  Cochairman Willford directed the Department to contact the LSO to address the issue in the bill.

Mr. Keck next addressed proposals for changes in the current system.  He stated that the Department was looking at establishing a pilot project before making changes to the entire system in order to know additional costs and what effect the changes would have to those using the system.  Additional data is also needed before the Department can suggest some system wide changes to the Legislature, such as variable fees.  Mr. Gentle noted that the Department should contact the tourism arm of the Business Council to ensure that the data the two agencies collected was uniform.  The Committee discussed possible changes in the system.  LSO staff outlined suggested changes from the LSO program evaluation report.  (Appendix 4).  Mr. Gentle stated the Department intended to proceed with a pilot project as suggested in the program evaluation report; LSO staff noted the Committee could prepare a suggested budget footnote to ensure the Department had authority to implement the pilot project for the budget period.

Tom Berry, Wyoming Campground Association, spoke in opposition to developed state campgrounds.  Full service campgrounds should be provided by the private sector.  Mr. Gentle stated the Department would only place improved campsites at state parks through concessionaire agreements.

Use of Hot Springs State Park

The Committee next discussed use of lands within Hot Springs State Park.  Using an aerial photograph of the park Mr. Keck pointed out all the entities located on state park grounds which were private or non-state public entities.  In addition, there are approximately 15 easements across Hot Springs State Park lands.  LSO staff reviewed a memorandum provided earlier to the Committee concerning the use of the initial lands granted for Hot Springs State Park.  (Appendix 5).  While a bit complex, it appears neither the initial agreement with the Indian Tribes nor the Act granting the lands to the State imposed restrictions requiring the operation of free bathhouses or other free access.  The Committee asked that the Management Council be notified the issue had been reviewed (since the Management Council had specifically requested such a review) and that the tribes also be notified. 

State Parks Concessionaire Program

The Committee next considered the concessionaire programs at the various state parks.  Mr. Keck provided a listing of leases, lessees and a summary of the lease terms.  (Appendix 6).  He also provided the rules and regulations under which the concessionaires must operate.  The Committee discussed various leases and questioned why there were different lease terms for similar items.  Mr. Gentle noted the leases were made at different times, by different recreation commissions.  The department is currently looking at making shorter leases, 20 years, with automatic review every 5 years. 

A number of concessionaires addressed the program.  Geneva Hanson, representing the Quality Inn, stated their relationship with the Department was good and noted that fees at Hot Springs State Park would be detrimental to their business.  Gary Hackett, operator of the Boysen Marina and Campground, stated that he was not treated the same as operators at Glendo and that while he is required to follow the state policies, not all are.  Mr. Gentle provided copies of correspondence with Mr. Hackett and stated that the situations were different and could not be flatly compared.  (Appendix 7)

Bill Moriarity, operator of Teepee pools, spoke in support of the loan program authorized for Hot Springs State Park concessionaires.  Without the program, he would not have made the investment in the facility he has.  He also opposed fees at Hot Springs State Park.

The Committee discussed expanding the loan program at Hot Springs State Park to other locations.  There was discussion regarding the constitutionality of the idea and LSO staff was asked to advise the Committee regarding the proposition.

After receiving computer training from LSO staff, the Committee adjourned to tour Legend Rock historic site.

Tuesday June 12.

The meeting was called to order at 8:30 a.m. by Cochairman Willford.  Members of the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission in attendance at the meeting were introduced.

Use and Management of Medicine Lodge State Park

Larry Gabriele, chief of the fiscal division of the Game and Fish Department first addressed this subject.  Mr. Gabriele gave background of Medicine Lodge and indicated that it resulted from a purchase by the Game and Fish Department with federal funds.  Thus it was subject to federal regulations limiting its use.  State Parks and Cultural Resources Department manages the property since it contains an archeological site.  The cooperative agreement developed by the two Departments should satisfy the federal restrictions.

Free Fishing Day

Deedee Roberts of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and Mike Stone from the Wyoming Game and Fish addressed the Committee regarding a free fishing day.  Mr. Stone indicated that every state other than Wyoming and Montana presently have a free fishing day.  They also offered some background on previous attempts at passing such legislation.  The Committee discussed the free fishing day bill draft (02 LSO 0041.W1, appendix 8).  Representative Tomassi moved the bill be introduced by the Committee this upcoming session, Senator Massie seconded and the motion passed unanimously.

Underutilization of high recreation areas

Cochairman Miller addressed the Committee regarding Yellowtail Wildlife Habitat Management Area.  He believed the area should be brought back to a higher recreational level.  He noted that washouts had damaged the area and it was not able to be visited as much as it had in the past.  Tom Easterly of the Game and Fish Department provided background about the area.  He provided two handouts on Yellowtail.  (Appendices 9 and 10).  However, in order to build Yellowtail, certain areas needed to be developed.  The Committee discussed with Mr. Easterly and Bud Harrison, also of the Game and Fish, areas such as Yellowtail and how they could be developed.  The Committee noted the need for funding for the development of these areas, and discussed how other revenue sources such as user fees could generate the money needed for development.  The Committee also expressed concern as to why Yellowtail had fallen into its present status.  John Baughman, Director Game and Fish Department also discussed the present plans which the Game and Fish had for different areas around the state which were in similar disrepair as Yellowtail.  The issue is one of prioritization and funding.

The Committee requested that the Game and Fish provide information on other areas in need of improvements like the Yellowtail area.  Senator Youngbauer requested that more visual images be supplied of Yellowtail so he could better assess the situation.

Compensation payments to landowners for wildlife damages

Terry Cleveland from the Game and Fish Department addressed the Committee regarding compensation payments to landowners for wildlife damages. He gave a power point presentation titled Wildlife Damage Claim Summary for FY 00 with A 10-year history.  The bulk of the presentation is contained in Appendix 11.  Mr. Cleveland also reviewed the statutory framework which Wyoming has regarding the responsibility of the state to compensate a landowner for damage by wild game and noted that because extraordinary damage to grass was not defined the Game and Fish Commission had promulgated a regulation supplying the needed definition.  He stated that Montana does not pay for damages by wildlife while Utah, Idaho and Colorado allow some compensation for damages.

The Committee and members of the audience had an extensive discussion regarding the impact of wildlife on private land.  The discussion included the failure of landowner coupons to be given to the appropriate landowner, and the low dollar amount for landowner coupons.  The Committee also received correspondence from the Agricultural Committee which incorporated two letters from Wyoming ranchers regarding damage which had occurred to their property.  (Appendix 12).  Bernie Spanogle the author of one of the letters was present and supplied the committee with a handout regarding the importance of wildlife and recreation management on private lands in the United States.  (Appendix 13).  Jack Turnell, President of the Wyoming Stock Growers Association, noted the problems with the definition of extraordinary damage to grass being based upon increased consumption over the preceding two years.  With that definition, the bar is continually raised to qualify for damage payments each year for damages to grazing land.  Jim Magagna Executive Director of the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association, stated that current livestock damages are the tip of the iceberg with increasing grizzly bear and wolf populations.  He questioned whether the Game and Fish should begin commercial harvesting of elk, with the lack of success of current hunting practices.  He suggested the Committee consider a third party entity to try and resolve the game damage issue.

Kim Floyd executive director of the Wyoming Wildlife Federation, agreed that private landowners provide much access and forage for wildlife.  He noted the need to prevent commercialization of wildlife and for his organization to develop dialogue with landowner groups to come up with solutions to the problems being discussed. 

Martin Thomas of Ranch 91, stated that he would be the last generation to continue the family ranch under existing conditions.  Elk numbers are increasing and hunting is not adequately keeping the numbers in check under Game and Fish practices.  Mr. Thomas' full comments are attached as appendix 14. 

Representative Dick Sadler stated that he was concerned with duplication of effort with the Agriculture Committee reviewing an issue Management Council had assigned to this Committee. The Committee discussed the information provided by the Agriculture Committee and Cochair Miller noted he had discussed the issue with the Agriculture Committee Chairman Geis.  The Committee discussed possibly meeting jointly with the Agriculture Committee in the future to further discuss the issue.

Wolf reintroduction – effect on wildlife populations

Robert T. Fanning representing Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd, next addressed the Committee.  He provided background as to the nature of his organization.  Mr. Fanning also provided background on the wolf – where it came from and a history of why it had been introduced in Yellowstone.  Mr. Fanning distributed a packet to the committee including correspondence which had been sent to Montana Representative Dan Fuchs from the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd, Inc.  (Appendices 15 and 16) and with studies relating to the introduction of wolves in Yellowstone.  (Appendix 17).  His position was that wolves should be delisted (and should not have been introduced since their was already a native wolf population which has since been extinguished by the introduced population) and urged the Committee to contact the Governor, who with the Governor of Montana or Idaho can petition for delisting with 90% of the cost control being the responsibility of the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

Jay Lawson, chief of the Game and Fish wildlife division next addressed the Committee regarding the impact of the reintroduction of the wolf.  He provided written material.  (Appendix 18)  Mr. Lawson indicated that it was often difficult to monitor the exact effect of wolves on livestock.  His agency's biggest concern is that the wolves will be delisted rapidly, with the Game and Fish taking on management responsibilities without funding.  John Baughman, director of the Game and Fish stated that while Mr. Fanning was correct in that multiple states may request delisting, Congress has not appropriated the funds spoken of and the Game and Fish do not want to take on the management responsibilities without federal funding. 

Troy Mader, research director of the Abundant Wildlife Society of North America, also spoke to the Committee about the effect of wolves and imparted the importance of recognizing exactly how much it took to feed even one wolf.  This made it difficult on the wildlife population of any area in which the wolf had been reintroduced.  Mr. Mader presented written material.  (Appendix 19)  Senator Massie pointed out that a survey of Wyoming residents indicated that they supported wolf reintroduction in Wyoming.

Public Access for Hunting and Fishing

Mr. Baughman addressed the Committee regarding public access to landlocked land, walk-in access programs, access to private lands such as ranches, lease payments for the use of such lands, the Access Yes program involving voluntary donations by persons, and private access to public lands program in which the state entered into agreements with private ranches for a rancher to open his ranch for a small monetary payment.  The Access Yes program and funds from the conservation stamp have generated revenue for public access.  Total payments last year to private land owners were over 200,000 dollars as a result of these programs.  Most of the discussion among the public and the Committee indicated that the public access programs had been very successful.

Mr. Baughman indicated that the Wyoming Game and Fish Department owned about 165,000 acres and administered about 215,000 acres.  Additionally, game and fish administers miles of roads and streams in Wyoming.  These areas are available for public access.

Finally, Mr. Baughman expressed concern as to the number of recreationalists who were using Game and Fish maintained areas for camping or other activities which do not generate revenue.  He also suggested a source of revenue might be those people who were using Game and Fish lands for commercial guiding or outfitting.  He felt these parties should also be held more accountable for these activities.  Cochairman Willford expressed a similar desire.  Mr. Baughman stated the agency was not proposing any such legislation for this next year.  Cochairman Miller asked the Game and Fish Department to list possible fee changes in memo form.

Game and Fish Department Fiscal Issues

Deputy Director Bill Wichers next addressed the Committee regarding license fees and possible increases in fees.  He pointed out that adjustments for inflation only, maintain existing levels of services and do not increase the services which Game and Fish provides.  Surveys show that hunters and fishermen prefer inflationary adjustments every 3-4 years.  The Department would like to develop a standard pattern based on that approach.  Mr. Wichers suggested that the Wyoming Game and Fish Department should attempt to come up with an alternative source of funding to supplement license fees.  This is an area of possible legislation supported by the Committee.  The LSO was directed to work with the Game and Fish Department on such a proposal, after Cochairman Willford contacted the Management Council for approval of the additional topic.

Kathy Frank, assistant director of the fiscal division, made a presentation regarding the budget of State Game and Fish Department.  The presentation is outlined in Appendix 20. Game and Fish spent more than its revenues in 1993.  After cutbacks and license fee increases, spending and revenues were about equal, but the Department is again looking at deficits in 2002 when capital construction is included.  Mr. Wichers noted a fee increase would be needed in either 2003 or 2004.  Committee members requested that the Game and Fish provide information regarding the cost of various programs and revenues generated, since the Department is so heavily reliant on deer and antelope as revenue generators.  The Committee also asked to see a comparison with surrounding states regarding hunting and fishing license costs and program costs and revenues.   

Mr. Wichers also presented the Committee with a proposal for increasing the cost of a lifetime conservation stamp.  (Appendix 21).  Currently the lifetime conservation stamp costs 7.5 times the annual stamp cost.  Other lifetime licenses are 13 to 16 times the annual amount.  Committee members noted the bill was killed in the Senate for a number of reasons, one of which was that members wanted to address the broader scope of license fees generally.  Representative Gay asked that the Game and Fish provide an estimate of money lost by keeping the lifetime conservation stamp at $75 to date. 

State Aquarium

Representative Thompson presented the Committee with a letter from Barry Cook, the City Administrator for the town of Green River regarding the possibility of a state aquarium being located there.  (Appendix 22).  Senator Miller asked that the issue be included in the letter to Management Council concerning additional issues.

Next Meeting

The Chair entertained discussion from the Committee regarding the next meeting.  August 28 and 29 were the agreed dates with Saratoga chosen as the location with a possible visit to the Territorial Prison.  Topics in addition to those discussed above are to include a report from the tourism division of the Business Council.

There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 3:30 p.m.

                                                                        Respectfully submitted

                                                                        ________________________

                                                                        Cochairman Loren "Teense" Willford